2017 - Is Ddrum still the way to go?

[cableaddict]

Yeah, I know, a big can of worms,  but let's go there anyway.

I own a pro studio, and have been using a semi-electronic kit for 15 years.  That is:  two e-kicks,  4 e-toms,  a pole pad,  and an e-snare as my alternate snare.  The main snare & all the cymbals are real, and I have no intention of ever changing that, though I'd love to have one really good electronic "alternate" ride cymbal.

My e-system has been a DDrum2 brain, with HART pro pads.  The output from the pads is a hair low, so I can't get maximum volume out of the brain,  but it's close enough for rock&roll.   No pro drummer has ever complained about either the sounds nor the response / feel.

-------------

But now it's 2017, and I'm itching to have more & better sounds on tap.   Yes, I can record the midi out (actually I never tried this) or the actual piezo output to tracks (this I do all the time) and then replace the sounds later in my DAW.  However,  to get a killer groove from the band, when tracking,  using the brain's internal sounds is a must.  Even in 2017.

SO:   I am thinking about getting a Ddrum3 brain.   More inputs,  better sounds,  same insanely fast trigger speed.   I don't need ANY bells & whistles, like a built in metronome,  audio inputs, etc.   Feh.    HOWEVER,   the one thing I'd love to have is a usb output, so as to trigger my DAW's VSTi drum sounds without having to run the piezo outputs directly.  (This would also give me positional sensing data, if I understand things correctly.)

I can get a used TD-30 for around the same cost as a good condition DDrum3 brain.  (close enough price that it's not a factor.)  I know this will give me that USB data, and also give me excellent adjustability of pad sensing parameters.  However, I also know that the Ddrum triggers a little bit faster,  and I am REALLY picky about this.
---------------------------------

A few specific questions:

1:  Does anyone know the true latency of various modern modules, from the last 5 years or so?  TD-30 and it's variants, TD-50,  Yamaha, etc?

2: Has anyone ever recorded the midi out from a DDrum3,  either directly or via a midi-to-USB converter,  then triggered new sounds from a VSTi like Superior Drummer?   If so, how did that work out?    Did you get any positional sound variations? 

3: On snare,  does the DDrum3 have any way to give a clean cross stick?  This is not critical, but would be nice.  The Roland TD-50 can, in conjunction with their new (expensive) e-snare.

------------------------------

Any other thoughts, concerning this general topic?   (There are probably questions I'm not even thinking to ask right now.)

thanks. 

[Deleted]

Hi and welcome to the forum!

Here are the latencies of the modules I have measured:

2box
Kick: 4,55ms
Snare: 4,45ms
HiHat: 4.6ms
Cymbal: 4.7ms
Cymbal Edge: 6ms

Ddrum3
Average latency: 2,3mS
jitter ± 0,285mS

Alesis DM5
Average latency: 4,146mS
jitter ± 1,735mS

Alesis DM Pro
Average latency: 10,54mS
jitter ± 1,18mS

Yamaha TMX:
approximately: 4mS

COMBINATIONS (TMI (trigg to midi modules)):

Roland TMC6 via MIDI to Alesis DM Pro:
Average latency: 6,345mS
jitter ± 0,4mS

Aphex Impulse via MIDI to Alesis DM Pro:
Average latency: 4,646mS
jitter: ± 0,525mS

"Jitter" here means the variance in latency between a number of hits, I don't remember how many hits were recorded.

dd3 via MIDI to Alesis DM Pro = 5,76ms

Aphex Impulse via MIDI to dd3 = 3,5mS
Roland TMC6 via MIDI to dd3 = 2,78ms

VST Superior Drummer measurements; I think I ran MIDI from dd3 to M-Audio Audiophile, buffer size 64 samples and then audio from PC to one channel and audio from dd3 / pad to another channel on my Zoom HD16 and measured the difference.
4,89ms ddrum3 audio out vs SD2 out
7,12ms pad vs SD2 out using dd3

Pad connected directly to M-Audio Audiophile using JS Drumtrigger plugin in Reaper:
8,7ms @ 44.1kHz
7,05ms @ 96 kHz


I generally have found that the more rigid the pad, the lower the latency (response time) is possible. Mesh heads generate a pretty sloppy transient, which means longer scan-time is needed for accurate dynamic tracking. The dd3 and4 pads are very firm, which is hard on the wrists but allow precise dynamic tracking with very low scan-time. The dd modules doesn't even use scan-time like Roland does. Generelly you can just look at the pads to get an ballpark estimate of what the response time will be.

The one module to avoid if you want low latency is Alesis DM Pro, which has a latency of 10,54ms due to poor design of the audio engine. The triggering itself is ok if you use midi. That module has very cool editing possibilities, but the latency makes it useless.

Positioning from dd3 is transmitted via MIDI if you use the "position" MIDI response mode (version 2.x firmware). You need center mounted piezos in the pads to get position information, preferrably the dd3 or 4 pads. That said, the position feature is overrated. You only really get 2-4 usable zones, and it's a pain in the neck to create samples that utilize position. Only one stock sound does.

MIDI decoding is usually pretty slow in PC's and MIDI to USB converters are pretty slow aswell so it adds up. I did measure it (not USB, but direct normal MIDI-cable) at one time and got 7,12ms latency using Superior Drummer, dd3 and M-audio Audiophile 2496. I think I ran it at 96kHz, but my notes doesn't say.

I'd say that the 2box module is the best compromise between playability, soundquality and latency.

dd3 does not have any good way to get cross stick. The dd3 and 4 snare pads have one center and one rim piezo but the modules don't have any means of separating the signals other than tweaking threshold settings which can be hit or miss. Many use the ddrum tube for cross stick.

[cableaddict]

Wow, that's some great info, and it sounds like I can trust it.

THX.

Interesting point about mesh heads. That could be another reason to keep them as tight as possible. (Besides minimizing bounce.)


FWIW, the only modules I ever tested personally (stick hit to audio out of the module) are my current Ddrum2, at about 2.8 ms for kicks, toms and snr, and the old Roland TD20, which was horrible beyond belief. That Roland was something like 15 ms for the kicks, 9-10 ms for the toms, etc. A nightmare.



I'm definitely on the fence now. I don't care about midi transmission speed, since the module's internal sounds will ALWAYS be at least 5-6 ms faster. I can always substitute sounds later, in the DAW, as long as that midi has full dynamics, and ( I still want it!) positional info.)

Hard to say if the Ddrum3 is worth giving up some features in order to get 1.2 ms shaved off the time. - And the current modules might be a hair faster. (Do any of them trigger analog these days?) - But I'm REALLY picky about groove, and this affects the entire band, not just the drummer. Actually, it affects the band MORE than the drummer....


I'm leaning heavily towards getting something new, but ughhh ...

[Deleted]

Wow 15ms for the TD20! You could go and get some coffee before you hear the sound
dd3 only has 2 sets of tom sounds; Yamaha and Tama. Personally I find that only a few of the kick sounds are interesting of the stock sounds. I have almost entirely used dd3 with my own samples, and it's time consuming to make them. Also since there is "only" 8 dynamic layers, the different velocity samples can't be too different sounding, or the switching from one layer to the next will be too obvious. You can assign 16 samples total per channel, so if utilizing position you could assign 8 velocity layers to pos 1 and 8 to pos 2-8. Or you could also assign more positions to the velocities that more often are hit, say 4 positions for vel 6,7 and less for the other velocity layers.

The Aphex Impulse is the fastest TMI in existence. If you'd use that and a 192k audio interface, maybe you could get 5ms total latency. If you go with dd3, expect a lot of time making your own samples. 2 box is better in this regard since you use USB for transferring samples and you have 99 layers and a program to use for assembling them on the computer. ddrum pads have too hot signal for the 2box though.
The Alesis Mimic sounds pretty nice from what I've heard on YouTube. The developer posted on vdrums forum and he said latency would be 4-7ms, but that seemed like an guestimate before production had started. That's how stuff is designed now a days
ddrum4 has some useable tom sounds with 7 layers. It's latency is 2,4ms and it supports mesh heads. You can find them pretty cheap too.

[cableaddict]

thanks, Krillo.

Well, I bit the bullet and bought a Ddrum3 module today. I got it for $475, delivered! - So figure I can't really get too hurt on the deal.

I understand the limitations as you describe them, but since I've been living happily with a Ddrum2 module for years, I figure this should still be an upgrade. Again, I only need the onboard sounds for tracking bands. I intend to record the midi,  just 3-4 outputs from the module, and then use VSTi sounds later as replacements. (Superior Drummer or Steven Slate.)  I use all real cymbals anyway, so this is not a huge challenge.

My main decision ended up being that I want to assign any input on the module to any sound, which many of the modern modules do not allow, and I wanted at least 3-4 auxillary inputs, which are also hard to get without going for a TD-30 or TD-50.

Plus, the Ddrum isn't much faster than those modules, but it IS faster.

If the TD-50 could record multiple tracks of audio, in real time, over USB, then that would have swayed me, but technology just isn't there yet.

If I could run my main DAW at 192K, with a low buffer, that also might have swayed me towards the Alesis trigger thing, but that's not possible when also running a complex DAW setup.    BTW - it should be noted that just running at 192K doesn't give you faster computer throughput.  Typically, when you double the sample rate, you end up having to at LEAST double the HW buffer, so while the ADA conversion is faster, your total throughput is almost the same.   - And sometimes you need MORE than double the HW buffer, so your throughput actually goes down.    192K is probably a workable solution for a drummer using a fast laptop, and ONLY using it for a VSTi drum thing, but it's not practical for studio recording of an entire band.

--------------

You guys have been REALLY helpful with this.

Thanks !

[c0nsilience]

Congrats on the Ddrum3 acquisition! It's a monster module.

I'm running a hybrid Ddrum4/Ddrum4SE setup and using both internal samples and MIDI via both modules with (mainly) Battery and XLN's Addictive Drummer. I run into a UAD Apollo and into Logic Pro X. I couldn't be happier with this setup!

[necroticus]

The Reason ddrum is the fastest is because it keeps the trigger signal ANALOG! Roland and the others convert the trigger's signal from Analog to Digital, which drastically slows down the response time. I just saw this thread, and wanted to touch on this. Clavia knew what they were doing.