VSTi Software / Computers / DDrums

[drumsonly2002]

I own several modules, and tried many live and jams. By far my trusty DDrum 4 and DDrum 4 SE are my all time favorite sounding / triggering and dynamics. My next experiment is to trigger drum sounds from a computer via DDrum module, and A / B the VSTi samples vs DDrum. Going to use Addictive drums, preferably Mac computer and Pre Sonus Audio Box. Can this be improved via computer driven drum sounds bigger processor, ram, band width. If it is better, really worth the effort? Personally my theory is less is more, DDrum module, e kit, JBL EON G2 and can play any gig verses the complexity of the addition of computer, Audio Box etc. I personally do not think VSTi will be an A-Ha moment and replace one of the best drum modules ever made.

[lite]

You'll have gigabytes of multisamples - as real as samples can get these days. But trigger behaviour, latency and jitter makes it totally fun-less and unreliable for live use to me. I guess the Presonus Box has Firewire? Firewire has high bandwidth but it is not fast at sending single bytes (MIDI) immediately. Except some RME interfaces I don't think you'll like the MIDI jitter and latency. It's often even worse than audio latency.

[drumsonly2002]

From what I've read, the dance goes like this. Drum Pad, Ddrum module, Ddrum to midi into computer. Computer triggering VSTi sample. Sample from computer via Firewire or Usb-2 to pre sonus audiobox or firebox. Audiobox feeds headphones, pa or monitor. Less than 3 ms latency according to my google research. That being said, using computer's internal soundcard = much latency vs Audio box = 3 ms latency. This video claims 0 latency using Pre Sonus Firebox www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2Uq6G3P9GM See video at 1:42 Also www.youtube.com/watch?v=svF9kJbWrmQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL see video at 3:60. With the Rex Drum kit, they use an Alesis unit to plug triggers into. Personally, I would only use my DDrum 4 modules. If the computer poops out, the DDrum module is ready to go. Then again is it really worth the effort dragging computers etc. to a gig verses using just the DDrum module that is reliable and good to go? Vsti will have to be sweet for me to go through all that trouble. Just some food for thought. Trying new things is fun, but more gear means potentially more headaches.

[lite]

What this guy is telling on youtube are simply really bad lies. He is a promotion guy from RET and wants to sell his stuff. He doesn't understand the difference between zero latency direct monitoring (input audio signal is routed directly to the output without going thru the computer - has NOTHING TO DO with VST drumming - it's just related to audio interfaces and monitoring an incoming audio signal) and the latency components you have with VST drumming. I've commented one of his videos. He doesn't appreciate the truth about latency.

Here is what latency you really have:

Trigger analysis:
2ms (it's required to get a decent velocity value. The beginning of the envelope is not suitable)
Toy modules like Alesis Trigger I/O add several milliseconds for computing. Our ddrum doesn't produce further delay, it's precise and fast.

MIDI:
the pure transfer time is a bit more than a millisecond (at least one byte)

MIDI interface latency:
Firewire is slow. The fastest MIDI interfaces are connected via PCI, PCMCIA(or cardbus), or even serial port (low bandwidth but fast because it's pretty direct - search on gearvery*friendly*personz.com for more information.com)
Presonus Boxes are known for being slow MIDI performers in terms of latency.
Bad MIDI interfaces give you an additional 5ms up to 15 or 20ms. This is no joke, it's the sad truth. And they have jitter, meaning latency is varying all the time, makes it even worse.
If you have a fast interface you can get down to 1ms for the MIDI interface. I use an EMU 1616m (less 1ms).
If you wanna check or if it's hard to believe how bad modern MIDI interfaces perform, just download MIDITest (freeware) and see the results of your interface. It only runs on PCs.

Host application:
BFD for example uses at least 32 samples internal buffer. This is almost another millisecond.

ASIO latency:
depends on what your audio interface is capable of (without popps and klicks). RME is fast. But you will have at least 1.5 milliseconds ASIO latency if you buy one of the fastest ones. Many interfaces require several milliseconds to work reliable without popps and dropouts.

Add all the latency values together and you have the overall latency from pad strike to audio output. If you really have all the best components for low latency VST drumming you might be happy and get less than 10ms.

If someone wants to tell you "zero latency" you know how reliable this information is.
I've tried a lot with different MIDI and audio interfaces, different software, etc.
And I wanted to back up my findings with true results:

unofficially-ddrum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=vstis&action=display&thread=23

However, I would recommend you try it and see if you like VST drumming. After trying around and optimizing the entire hardware for low latency VST drumming I've returned to my ddrum hardware. It is fast, reliable, straight forward to operate and far better trigger behaviour (decent hi-hat articulations is no plug and play item with VST drumming as the ddrum4 features).

[drumsonly2002]

WOW! Now that is one great post! I use my DDrums live because of the dynamics, sound and triggering. My trusty DDrum module will trigger anything, and never fails. I really enjoyed your post.

[lite]

Glad you enjoyed my VST bashing, hehe :-)

But it's fun to play around with VST sounds. And you can record ddrum MIDI track and use the MIDI data to trigger VST sounds afterwards. This way latency is no killer anymore. But still jitter is.

One thing became pretty clear to me. Our ddrums are even the best and fastest trigger engines for VST stuff

Just saw what the board censorship did: gearvery*friendly*personz.com
Original: w w w . g e a r s l u t z . c o m (hope this one works?)

[Deleted]

I actually sent MikeyVPT a message on YouTube around a year ago, asking him to measure his latency, his respons was that "It's no latency, it's really fast" or something similar. To me, that means he has no clue.

[drumsonly2002]

Sometimes less is more. My two DDrum modules, DDrum 4 and DDrum 4 SE are amazing sounding. I love technology and exploration of new ideas, but when the band is cranking, the sounds from my module are excellent. May be or may be not VSTi sounds better. DDRums was used in one Kiss tour by Eric Singer (Fact). I think VSTi may become popular someday, but for a simple grab and go solution modules will always win the day.